The five-minutes long standing ovation is still reverberating in our ears a day after the rapturous screening of ‘Manthan’ in the Cannes Classics section. That this is Naseeruddin Shah’s first time at the Croisette seems unbelievable, especially because he has been so closely associated with Indian art-house cinema, the kind that gets routinely programmed at such festivals.
In an expansive chat on the sun-dappled press terrace of the Palais, I ask him what it feels like being in Cannes, the experience of the famed standing ovation, the shooting of Manthan, what the film has come to mean to him, among other things. Excerpts.
Q: So how did you manage to escape Cannes all these years?
A: (Laughs) I thought I was majorly doing the movies that go to festivals, and I’m not aware of any of my films other than ‘Nishant’ which came to Cannes, but I wasn’t brought along. Shyam Benegal preferred to get along Smita and Shabana and creating a sensation walking down with these two gorgeous ladies. (laughs)
The only other (film) festival I’ve been to is Rio for Mohan Joshi Haazir Ho.
Q: And what was it like, being here for ‘Manthan’, and the applause after the screening?
A: Oh boy, it was deeply moving. Firstly because I’m very proud of this film. I would have done any part that Shyam asked me to, and to my surprise, it was this part. When my first film ‘Nishant’ released, it was a moderate success, it was much acclaimed also. Every actor in it got employment. Smita became a star, Shabana was already a star. Girish started playing leading parts, Amrish (Puri) started playing the heavy roles, Mohan Agashe, Kulbhushan (Kharbanda), everybody started getting work, not me. (laughs)
I didn’t get a single thing, and I went to Shyam and asked him what did I do wrong? And he said, you see, people are confused. They are confusing the actor with the character. With the way you appear in ‘Nishant’ as a namby-pamby who does nothing heroic, neglects his own wife, falls in love with this other woman, it is not the kind of character people identify with. And you don’t look particularly magnetic. But don’t worry, I have something for you, he said, and told me about ‘Manthan’; this is the part that will generate more work for you.
I was jumping for joy. That was the only feeling I had at the time. I didn’t dream that 48 years later it would be celebrated in the land of Godard and Tati. I wonder if even Shyam thought that this would happen. I just wanted to give as good a performance as I could.
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I was a big believer in method acting at that time. The rest of the cast was very amused at my antics. I was trying to become a villager. I stayed dressed in that costume all day. I wanted to appear grimy, not that the villagers in India are unclean, in fact they are way more clean than city people, but I wanted to wipe away all traces of urbanisation from my personality.
My family on the maternal side are landowners near Meerut, so I have seen villagers closely. My grandfather was a landlord and he was not the most kindhearted of people. I’ve seen the way he treated those who tilled his land and did odd jobs for him. I could empathise with both, nana and the guy, and that kind of observation helped me.
Q: Shyam Benegal told me he had instructed you all not to bathe.
A: I think I was the only one who obeyed him (laughs). I don’t think Smita did that, but then Smita had that incredible god-given charisma, she didn’t have to do anything but just appear on screen..
Q: The film’s backstory is incredible. Were you aware at that time of its significance?
A: Hell, no. I had no idea of anything, the fact that milk farmers live in such dire circumstances, milk the cattle themselves, and then transport it on their bicycles, which have now become motorcycles, and sell it to their customers. Or that they were at the mercy of the double-dealing landowners. And now there are over a hundred thousand co-operatives, and India is the biggest milk producer in the world.
All I wanted to do then was to stun the world with my acting. In retrospect, it did teach me that it was not an actor’s job.
Q : To stun the world? And at the time you thought you were the best thing since sliced bread?
A: Yes, I always believed that (laughs). Shyam would chastise me and say don’t play the character as you see him, don’t play heroic, he isn’t a hero. At the end of the film, it isn’t victory attained, but the long road ahead.
Q: Did you feel the caste-ism (that is shown so effectively in the film) when you were shooting?
A: Oh yes, I saw a shopkeeper yell at a girl to step out, and that really hurt. I was in my villager’s uniform, and no one recognised me. I heard people being addressed in pejorative terms, and I remember wondering why these people could not be treated as human.
What makes the film seem modern is that the topics it touches, whether it is patriarchy or the caste system, or the rewards of a collective effort, are still very much relevant. It’s also important to note that Dr Kurien (Verghese Kurien, the architect of Operation Flood, on whom Karnad’s character was modelled) is never made into a superhero of any kind, and is shown with his strengths and weaknesses.
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Q: This is a good time to ask you this question, which I’ve always wanted to. You’ve repeatedly said that this kind of cinema (parallel, art-house) was a let-down, and so you went over to the other side (commercial, mainstream).
A: No that isn’t entirely true. I didn’t switch over. I never denied that I wanted to become a popular actor. No one becomes an actor to serve art, it is to be known, to be famous, to be looked at. And I did too, but I didn’t prepare myself for it.
Q: I’ve seen ‘Sunayana’ (one of his first mainstream films, which was terrible, and duly tanked)
A: Oh boy ( laughs) I did ‘Sunayana’ just after ‘Junoon’. It wasn’t as if I dumped those films entirely and I started doing commercial films. ‘Sunayana’ was such a disaster, and I was dreadful in it. And I could feel it when I was shooting, that I was no good at this kind of thing.
When I started to castigate these new age filmmakers, it was not because I wanted to dump them. I continued doing movies of that kind throughout my career, even after the success of films like ‘Tridev’.
I did get somewhat put-off by the closed-mindedness of some of these filmmakers, and the fact that they didn’t seem to be progressing from film to film. I don’t want to take names, but they would make the same film every now and then, and not very competently at that. Even Manmohan Desai speaks about the plight of the mill workers and he does it more entertainingly than you do, so what’s so special about you?
I did feel a sense of being let down. If I gave the same kind of performance in every movie, would you cast me again? So there was a whole set of people that I didn’t want to work with again, which didn’t include Shyam. I would do anything for him anytime, and I’ve always done that.
So it wasn’t an about-face. It was about me being more selective in trying to do more popular movies along with the serious ones, even if I wasn’t cut out to do that kind of cinema at all. If you ask Mr Bachchan to play a character like Bhola (the part that he plays in Manthan), I don’t think he would be able to do it. Similarly, I wouldn’t be able to do his kind of roles.
Secondly, to be convincing in that kind of formula movie, you have to have affection for that kind of cinema, which I don’t have. I’ve never been sold on Hindi commercial movies. Only 5-6 that have left a deep impression on me– Pyaasa, Do Bigha Zameen. The technicoloured song and dance was not for me.
Q: Is that why you’ve continued to do theatre?
A: Hell, I’m stuck in this mediocrity, condemned to do it for the rest of my life, to do films I hate which are forgettable as soon as they are made. Theatre has kept me sane.
Q: Funnily though, the films that made Naseer angry, ‘jinse unko sabse zyaada gussa aata hai’, are the very ones that have lasted, that people are lauding still. Isn’t it ironical that the kind of film you turned your back on has brought you to Cannes, and is being celebrated so widely here?
A: Yes, it is extremely ironic. And it’s fortunate that people don’t remember the bad work you’ve done.
Q: Is there anything in the popular lexicon that you’ve liked yourself in?
A: ‘Masoom’. It is really not an out-and-out commercial film; it is very tender, very genuine, very truthful. That is a film I’m very proud of. I’m happy to have been part of it. It introduced me to four generations of children. I wasn’t married then, had no children. Even ‘Tridev’ which prolonged my career by about ten years. I wasn’t particularly good in it, but it was such a novel thing, dancing away to “Tirchi topi wale”.
Q: You’ve been plain spoken about the rise of bigotry in the last few years. Has it impacted your career? Are there any regrets?
A: I have no regrets. I could not bring myself to be complimentary. I have no fear. I don’t think I’ve lost any employment because I’ve been outspoken. I’ve never been out of work.
Q: Has the fact of your religion ever come in the way of roles?
A: I don’t think my religion has got in the way. The film industry has just one. Mammon. One must call out things if one feels strongly about them. I’ve never gone overboard or hysterical, but I’ve always believed in calling a spade a spade.
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Q: So you leave here with an evening to remember…
A: Yes, it was so moving. So many dear friends have gone away
Q: Was Smita a good friend?
A: No, not a good friend, but I was extremely fond of her. She was a wonderful person to work with, and we enjoyed a great rapport.
Nor am I close friends with Shabana, but I think that’s a good thing. Your real-life relationship gets in the way. Sometimes it can add a certain charm to a movie, but I don’t believe it is necessarily a good thing to be close friends with people who work together often.
Shabana and I meet with deep affection. I’m very fond of her, and she of me, and when we work together we approach each other like blank sheets of paper. It was the same with good old Smita, and I really miss her.
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